On Sunday morning, laying in bed late and listening to CBC Radio's the Sunday Edition, I sat bolt upright as I heard Clinton Missouri co-chair and super-delegate Congressman Rev. Emanuel Cleaver II say these words:
"And frankly that is causing many African-Americans to tremble because, you know, after November, uh, and if I have to make a prediction right now I'd say Barack Obama's gonna be the next President.
And after November, I think, any redress on racial issues will be met with rejection, because we've already demonstrated that we're not a racist nation.
I will be stunned if he's not the next President of the United States."
For your reading pleasure below is the entire transcript from that 20 minute interview that aired on CBC Radio and finally hit the US media this morning.
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Transcript of an interview between Michael Enright of CBC Radio's The Sunday Edition and Clinton campaign Missouri co-chair Congressman Reverend Emanuel Cleaver II. Originally aired on CBC Radio nationally March 30, 2008
Note: I typed this transcript myself from the CBC Audio podcast. I'm not a pro at this but I think I did an accurate job. I edited out some of the uhhs and umms. The orginal audio is available at the Sunday Edition CBC web page.
Hello, I'm Michael Enright, and this is a podcast of The Sunday Edition.
(taped excerpt of a Rev. Cleaver Sermon:) The Book says that the world was out of control, Satan and his sanctioned sin was taking over the world. The only way to stop the stampeding horses of Hell was for somebody to halt the horses. Somebody, had to get in the way. Somebody had to control things. Somebody had to steal precious blood. Jesus stood in the way, Jesus held the horses of Hell back, that's why we're here today because Jesus Christ held them at bay. Glory, Hallelujah.
(clip of church organ)
Michael Enright: That's Pastor Emanuel Cleaver the Second. Reverend Cleaver comes from a long line of Christian ministers, he has been the Senior Pastor at St. James United Methodist for the past 25 years. He was a founder of the Kansas City Chapter of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. He served as Mayor of Kansas City, Missouri for 2 terms before being elected as the Representative for Missouri's 5th Congressional District.
I met with Congressman Cleaver, in his study.
Michael Enright: Congressman Cleaver welcome, pleasure to meet you on the radio.
Emanuel Cleaver: Good to be here.
ME: Thank you for joining us. Ah ... before we talk politics, I guess this is politics, in your Easter Sermon, you made reference to the Pastor Wright/Barack Obama situation. You're in a unique position being a pastor and a politician. What is your take on all of that? What do you make of it?
EC: Well, I'm in even more of a unique position in that I am a very strong supporter of Hillary Rodham Clinton. And I became outraged over the outrage expressed toward Senator Barack Obama, but most particularly toward Jeremiah Wright.
I think it was a demonstration of how we do in fact have two Americas, one black and one white. Because I don't think that most people had even a slight understanding of what was going on, uh, with uh, Reverend Wright in the sermon. Uh ...
ME: Except for the sound bites ...
EC: Yes ...
ME: The clips ...
EC: If you listen to the sound bites, it sounds like this is a demagogue, a racist, a person who wants to enjoy the fall of the United States. And none of that is true. I think Jeremiah Wright reflects in his sermons and his theology, what is experienced by many African-Americans and I think many African-Americans vicariously live through the expressions of people like Jeremiah Wright. And while I don't deliver those kinds of sermons, I do believe that it is an over reach to declare that Senator Barack Obama is Satan's first cousin because he's a member of Trinity Church in Chicago. I think it's just outrageous what's happened and it is a very clear sign that there is a lot of work to be done in race relations.
ME: When you see, listen and watch media and you see pundits saying to audiences, I guess white audiences, "He should have quit, he should have walked out of the church, he should have walked down the aisle and left the church, he should have shunned the pastor" and so on, how do you respond to that?
EC: Well, two ways. First of all, I have some appreciation for the fact that Barack Obama joined that church. And the reason I have some appreciation is that, that church, Trinity, has a long and rich history of being actively involved in the betterment of the Chicago black community. And so it seems to me, that Barack Obama made a conscious decision to be a part of a religious institution, organization, that does more than whip up people's spiritual emotions on Sunday. They are actually involved in taking care of the community, in Chicago.
Here at our church we do the same thing. We have after-school reading programs, taking place at this very moment. We have a whole group of men, primarily, involved in, we do recoveries, a program of people who are addicted and it goes on and on and on. And we've got to applaud that.
And one thing that's important also, is even if you just listen to the sound bites, there was nothing ever racist that fell from Jeremiah Wright's lips. He never said, "White people are devils". He never said, "We've got to attack white people". None of that. He drew a comparison between Senator Clinton and his parishioner Barack Obama. I personally disagree with some of the comparisons, but I think that what he said needs to be left alone.
The United States has gone too far. We have now started measuring everyone by something that we say is excluded from public life and that's people's religion. Now you can't run for public office unless you are measured on a religious ruler, to determine your worthiness. And I think that's sick.
ME: Senator Obama's speech, which he talked about Pastor Wright and all of that, he talked about the great, the unfinished conversation in this country is about race. And saying that we have to, Americans have to talk to each other about it. Is a Presidential election campaign the time to talk about race?
EC: I think that was one of the mistakes that Senator Obama made. If you are a black person, running for a high public office, in a predominantly white society, the one discussion you don't want is about race, because that is the one thing that this country has had the greatest difficulty in overcoming. I know, I ran for mayor in this town with a 28 percent white population. I'm a representative of this community in Congress with the smallest black population of any member of the Congressional Black Congress except Keith Ellison who was just recently elected from Minneapolis. And so, that's not the right time, this is not the right time. And any discussion that is launched in a presidential campaign will be superficial. We're not going to have a discussion about race. No one is making plans for it and if Senator Obama's handlers are suggesting that he initiate this conversation, I think he has just eliminated any possibility of winning the presidency.
ME: Do you think personally that you, did you think you'd ever, in your lifetime, see an African-American with a very good chance of becoming President of this country?
EC: No. I did not, unless that person had the name Colin Powell. I believe that Colin Powell could have been elected President, when George Bush was elected and I think he could have been elected even after the debacle in Iraq at the next election cycle, next November. I think he had all of the tools that were needed to make it to the White House.
So, I never thought that anyone else could have done it but I did see Colin Powell as a potential winner. And frankly, I am absolutely certain that Colin Powell would have won the Presidency, because there would have been, I mean, even the right wing, which would not normally want to embrace an African-American would have had difficulty demonizing a highly decorated General who had, uh, paid his dues to a country that discriminated against him. And yet he had never marched in a single protest, he'd never done any sit-ins. I mean he was a, the prototype of the candidate, if you were going to do a movie.
ME: There'd be no doubt about him being Commander-in-cheif either, that question would ...
EC: ... There would be no doubt. I think the reason he resigned as Secretary of State is because he was not going to allow anyone to dictate something to him that he believed to have been, uh, abhorrent.
ME: You were an early and are a strong supporter of Senator Clinton. Why?
EC: Well, for a number of reasons. Um, I have a long history with the Senator Clinton, I have known her now almost 20 years. I know her husband, my family and their family work together. My youngest son has jogged with her. Uh, it's a relationship, it is a friendship ...
ME: It's a personal thing ...
EC: ... yeah. And on top of that I believed that she would be the best president. Uh, I don't know Senator Obama. It doesn't mean he's a bad person, it just means that I don't know him. And frankly the country doesn't know him, but that's irrelevant at this point.
ME: Every poll I've read over the last year say that most American's think the country has to change, that it's going in the wrong direction.
EC: 75 percent of the American ...
ME: ... 75 percent. Who would bring the greater change do you think, Senator Clinton or Senator Obama?
EC: Well first of all we need to define change. And it has to be more than saying "We're gonna change". Answer the question about how we're gonna change. Change has become kind of the word that we throw out there because someone has done polling and said it works. And the American public unfortunately and tragically falls for it. You just say "Change" and people start cheering.
And, uh, you can change from bad to worse.
ME: If that's the case and if there is a need to change after 8 years of a Republican administration, is the fight between Senator Obama and Senator Clinton, is it doing damage to the Democratic Party, to the point where, if it's not settled, there might be a chance for a McCain presidency?
EC: Well, your question is one that I think every Democrat in the trenches is asking him or herself. Uh, there's no question that what's going on is not damaging internally to the party. It is also I think important to note that the differences between Senator Clinton and Senator Obama are so minute that most people can't even tell you. But what is happening is that enthusiasm of the supporters is rising to a point where the attacks from supporters, I think is deepening the chasm between the two.
And at one point I thought perhaps they could serve on a ticket together. I don't think so anymore. And I do think it would be the dream ticket, I do think they could win but, um, you know, the party is either going to settle the Michigan and Florida situation and give itself a chance to win or we are going to do what Democrats have done many times and that is to deliberately run off the cliff.
ME: I've heard people say that if the thing isn't sorted out by Denver, the time of the convention, that there could almost be another Chicago '68, minus the violence, but in terms of damage to the party.
EC: No question about it. I agree. I'm not supposed to agree with that, I'm supposed to, if I do the party line, I'm supposed to say, maybe I'll say it just so if anybody hears it they could say Cleaver did do the party line, before he told the truth: Ummm, we believe that a contest going all the way to the convention is good for America. It gives people an opportunity to hear both sides and see the debates between the two, which in the long run will equip America with the kind of information they need to make an intelligent and informed decision.
Now having said that ...
ME: (chuckling)
EC: ... having said that, we are headed for the tragedy of tragedies. Because, I've spoken with super-delegates from Florida, people like Corinne Brown, from Florida, congresswoman Corinne Brown, who said this is going to be the second coming of Fannie Lou Hamer. Fannie Lou Hamer as you will recall ...
ME: ... Mississippi delegation ...
EC: ... that's right and that tore up the convention, it caused a lot of white southerners to leave the Democratic party and go over to the dark side. And so, I think we're gonna have that again. She's clear, you're not going to disenfranchise the Democrats or the people of Florida for that matter. 1.3 million people voted and to discount that, and it gives me a chance to say to you that if we had this kind of process, in any other country to select a leader we'd ask the U.N. for an investigation. We'd ask, we'd want people going in, monitoring the election. This is unbelievably stupid.
ME: ... the Michigan and Florida ...
EC: ... Michigan, Florida, Iowa, New Hampshire, I mean, just think about this. We allow two of our smallest states to determine who becomes the president. And the reason I say that is because, you know, if you get happy and do a howl in either New Hampshire or Iowa you're over, it's over, you're out. And it doesn't make sense. There's very little diversity in either Iowa or New Hampshire. There is no way that you can really separate the rural from the urban, that's all just one little block of voters.
ME: Are Americans, once the Democratic question is settled, you move into November, toward November, after Labour Day, are Americans going to vote the issues, the economy, the war, or health care, that kind of thing, or are they going to vote on the basis of the family values, the "Values Voters" we've heard of in the last 8 years?
EC: Well, the family values voters are, I think, going to become manic depressive, because they have no place to play. I mean, you can't hardly consider John McCain, uh, one of them. And so, uh, they're gonna be frustrated. They'll probably be writing in Huckabee or uh, Jerry Fallwell or somebody. But they're not going to have a home. And so, I don't think that's going to be an issue.
Unfortunately McCain has tried to cater to them and it may or may not work, I don't think it will. But I think people are going to be voting on a number of different things. One, I think for many white Americans they are looking at Barack Obama and saying, "This is our chance to demonstrate that we have been able to get this boogeyman called race behind us". And so they're gonna vote for him.
You know, whether he has credentials or not, whether he has any experience, I think all that's out the window. It's this country's opportunity to say, "We've solved the problem, it's all over". And frankly that is causing many African-Americans to tremble because, you know, after November, uh, and if I have to make a prediction right now I'd say Barack Obama's gonna be the next President.
And after November, I think, any redress on racial issues will be met with rejection, because we've already demonstrated that we're not a racist nation.
I will be stunned if he's not the next President of the United States.
Now when he's sworn in 99.9 percent of Americans won't know who he is or what he stands for. But it doesn't matter at this point. You know he is articulate, in the black tradition he would probably be mediocre, but for white America you know he's ...
ME: ... I notice white commentators call him articulate ...
EC: ... all the time ...
ME: ... I mean the man was the editor of the Harvard Law Review ...
EC: ... it's a title that's reserved mostly for us, but, I mean, I get it all the time.
ME: ... the articulate pastor down at St. James ...
EC: ... well even in Congress people will say "We want our articulate representative from Missouri to speak". They've had me to speak for the party on a number of occasions. And, uh, it's for us it means we don't say 'dis and 'dat. But, I do think, that for white Americans it's like this guy can speak. You know, and if you put him on a level with a lot of other African-American public speakers that's not, he may not even measure up.
ME: You say that you would expect him to be the next president, but that doesn't shake your support or confidence in Senator Clinton?
EC: No it doesn't. I live here in Kansas City, Missouri, this is my home, I don't expect to live any place else and even though I don't expect the Kansas City Chiefs to beat the Indianapolis Colts, I still cheer for the Kansas City Chiefs. I mean, that's my home team and I stick with them even when they lose.
So I don't abandon my friends. And the easiest thing for me to do politically is to walk away from Senator Clinton, there would be African-Americans cheering, but I would have difficulty shaving in the morning, unless I could figure out a way to shave without looking in the mirror. Because, I would not want to be my friend, if I held tight to the friendship only in good times or predictably beautiful moments. A friend is a friend and I don't run out on my friends.
ME: Pastor thank you. Pleasure to meet you on the radio.
That was Rev. Emanuel Cleaver in his study at the St. James United Methodist Church.
Rev. Cleaver has now done a follow up interview clarifying his remarks to CBC Radio last week with Jessica Ramirez of Newsweek, posted on their site today.
